Recently I found an article on Adventist Today that claimed homosexuality was not a sin. Then I joined the discussion and was attacked.
For proof sake, I have the screenshot of the article here and the facebook conversation here.
Here are a few excerpts from the article, full article is here
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- Homosexuality is something that you are, not something that you choose. Even if you aren’t in a romantic relationship, your preference for the gender of the person you would have a relationship with is often quite clear to you.
- The Bible does not condemn committed homosexual relationships, because it never contemplates such a thing. I was impressed by this statement from pastor and psychologist Dr. Smuts van Rooyen: “If you go beyond proof-texting, you’ll see that what the Bible authors opposed is homosexuality as a means of idol worship. … Every reference to homosexuality in the Bible has to do with pagan worship, not to loving, monogamous, and faithful persons who seek to live out the implications of the gospel as a faithful heterosexual couple would.”
The discussion that took place about this is just as bad. Here is just the part I participated in:
Augie: God created no one homosexual. The practice of this lifestyle has been introduced into the human race by the enemy of the Creator. Living the homosexual lifestyle is totally a matter of choice.
Floyd to Augie Ballowe: homosexuality is neither a lifestyle nor a choice. Is heterosexuality a lifestyle or a choice?
Sergio to Floyd: we were no dessing homosexuals. The introduction of sin changed us to a biological level. However, that doesnt mean that we have to treat homosexuality as a desease. We have to be helpful and supportive.
John to Sergio: You don’t have to be helpful and supportive, you just need to accept and move on, worry about your life and your salvation.
Bryan to John: What our brothers and sisters in Christ do IS OUR BUSINESS.
Galatians 6:1
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
1 Timothy 5:20
Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
Adventist Today to Bryan: we know even without knowing you that you continue in sin, so let us know in how many ways so we can biblically rebuke you in the presence of all.
Bryan to Adventist Today: I do not “continue” in sin. I do not accept sin. I fall, but I don’t excuse it. When I fall, I accept that what I did was a sin and is wrong, then I pray for forgiveness and try not to do it again.
For Galatians 6:1 – I”m not “caught” in “a” sin. There is no particular sin that has control over me. If I fall and sin, I work harder and pray more not to fall into that sin again. That is not being “caught” in a sin.
As far as 1 Timothy 5:20 it’s the same. I’m not “continuing” in sin. If I fall and sin, I don’t excuse it and do it again, I pray for strength to over come it, I do not accept the sin.
You only need to correct or rebuke someone if they don’t accept that their sin is wrong or if they sin willingly believing they can just be forgiven. If they know their sin is wrong, and they try not to do it, then why would anyone need to rebuke them? They already know it’s wrong, they are trying not to repeat the sin.
I’m surprised I have to explain this, all who follow Christ should know this.
Adventist Today to Bryan: you quote that continued sin requires correction and rebuke. Have you stopped sinning? No, so you continue in sin. However you gloss that over, your continuing to sin requires to be corrected and rebuked as much as anyone else‘s sin. Surprised when sinners—all of us-—don’t understand this.
Here I should have showed this verse, now I’m blocked so I can’t:
Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Adventist Today to Pete: you’ve stopped sinning?
Bryan to Adventist Today: You’re not understanding this, but it’s so easy. Committing a sin, and continuing in sin are TWO DIFFERENT TNHINGS. (that is not yelling, it’s emphasizing).
As an adventist, you should know this.
John: There is one in every church…. put there to condemn and chase the sinners away…. God help them.
Adventist Today to Bryan: that you sin again after confessing the last sin doesn’t make that next sin any less sinful.
Bryan to John: We are not condemning anyone, the Bible shows that homosexuals are condemned, we’re just showing that the word of God says.
1 Corinthians 6:9 & 10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor EFFEMINATE, nor HOMOSEXUALS, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God
Adventist Today to Bryan: the Bible teaches that all sinners are condemned. That means you.
Bryan to Adventist Today: But I’m not accepting it, not calling it a lifestyle. Living a sinful lifestyle and sinning are not the same.
Adventist Today to Bryan: How is your ”righteous” lifestyle free of sin? How do those assumed distinctions make you not a sinner?
John: I hate to say it, but unfortunately over the years I have seen the self righteous “Adventist religious police” who take it upon themselves to judge and correct others, causing more damage than good… and wondering why the church youth are leaving en-masse.
Take a young person who discovers they are gay… At that early stage of life they are probably battling to deal with it due to their adventist up bringing and social pressure. They are then faced with a godly saint who decides they need to point out their wicked ways… calling them to repentance. Firstly, that person will never want to face that congregation again… and secondly, knowing that it is not their choice, but who they are, they realize, or it has been pointed out to them, that they can never be saved.
Good bye young soul. You will find a loving and accepting community else where.
Bryan to Adventist Today: I’m trying to explain this, but I’m probably not doing a good job.
There is a difference between committing adultery and being an adulterer.
There is a difference between committing a homosexual act and being a homosexual.
The difference is, sinning or accepting sin.
You are not reading what I’m saying. I never said I do not sin, I said I do not accept my sin.
I’m surprised that you do not know the difference.
I sin, I know it, but I do not accept it, I do not just say, oh well, I can sin because I can be forgiven.
The verses I posted are talking about people who feel it’s okay to sin because they can be forgiven. I do not think it’s okay to sin.
Adventist Today to Bryan: despite your non-acceptance nevertheless you sin and are a sinner. So it’s a self-righteous deception to end up with “definitions” that make one less of a sinner and less in need of grace than others. That itself is a lack of insight about sin. And it’s also sinful assumption that one knows the lives and sexual activity of those with a different sexual orientation to make specific judgments about them.
Adventist Today to Chip Johnson: the Bible calls many things an abomination depending on the particular English translation of the original terms. Some, probably even you, we don’t consider sin at all like mixing fibers in a cloth. Is your point that others are more sinful than you yourself are?
Adventist Today to Bryan: have a good workday.
Adventist Today to Chip Johnson: there are many resources available online for free. Perhaps some, unlike us, will have a clue and be helpful to your study.
Adventist Today to Chip Johnson: nobody‘s comments have been deleted, including your friend Pete’s. However, individuals can lose commenting privileges for ignoring our guidelines that require civil and respectful discussion of ideas. Those kind of comments do nothing either for their claims that they’re the real Christians in the conversation.
Bryan to Adventist Today: You said “Chip Johnson nobody‘s comments have been deleted” but you did delete all of Peters posts, so now you are lying. You also removed Chip’s posts, so you are lying about that too. You have no right to be here, you lie and lead others to sin.
Bryan to John: “They are then faced with a godly saint who decides they need to point out their wicked ways… calling them to repentance.”
This is what the Bible tells us to do, if you don’t like it, then leave God behind you. If you don’t want to hear or follow the Bible, then why are you in a church?
Then you say “Good bye young soul. You will find a loving and accepting community else where”.
If that person lives in sin and doesn’t repent, his soul is already lost. That is why we show what the Bible says. I do not say homosexuality is a sin, the Bible does. We/I don’t say you need to repent, the Bible does, I just share what is in God’s word.
What you are saying is that we are not to share what the Bible says. You are lost, completely lost, if you are telling us not to share what the Bible says.
Bryan to Adventist Today: You said: “Bryan How is your ”righteous” lifestyle free of sin? How do those assumed distinctions make you not a sinner?”
I never said I was free of sin, I said I do not plan to sin. God does not forgive those to ask for forgiveness when they plan on doing it again. God does not forgive a sin if you don’t ask for forgiveness.
I ask for forgiveness if/when I sin, so I’m forgiven. If I don’t ask for forgiveness, I can’t be forgiven. You are telling people homosexuality is not a sin, so people will not ask for forgiveness, so how can they get forgiveness if they don’t repent?
Accidentally sinning is something we all do, and that’s why Jesus died on the cross. But planning to sin continually is different. Homosexuals plan to sin the rest of their lives. You should know that, but you don’t, so you should not be here speaking for the Adventist community.
Jesus did NOT die so we can sin:
Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? Certainly not! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer?
You are attacking me for following the Bible, that is horrible. We, as followers of Christ, are told to correct each other when we see our brothers or sisters falling, sinning, and that’s all I was pointing out, then you attack me for it.
Galatians 6:1
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
Look what is says here, caught in “A” sin, this means a particular sin, something that gets ahold of you, like adultery, fornicating, homosexuality, stealing. This is not about accidental sin, again, you should know this, and the fact you don’t shows us that you should not be here representing the Adventist community.
1 Timothy 5:20
Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
This is not about someone who sins, this is about someone who is practicing sin, allowing A sin (or several sins) to continue in their life. Again, you should know this, but you don’t, and you refuse to try and understand it. Is this because there is a sin in your life you want to continue to do? Is that why you hate to hear what I’m saying?
You said “the Bible teaches that all sinners are condemned. That means you.”
That is a lie, sinners are not condemned. I would ask you to show me this in scripture, but you can’t, it’s not in the Bible. If sinners are condemned, then why did Jesus die on the cross? Only those who choose to sin are condemned.
You said: “So it’s a self-righteous deception”
This is not about me, I am not the one who is telling people it’s okay to sin, you are, and the Bible speaks strongly against this:
Luke 17:2-3
Jesus said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.
I have shown scripture, and that has caused you to attack me. I don’t see where you have used scripture to back up anything you believe. You should not be allowed to speak for the Adventist community because you are promoting sin.
Do the people who run Adventist Today know you are saying these lies on their behalf? They will know about it soon enough. Also the GC will see this conversation. Then all the other Adventist sources I can find will see this.
